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I was a panelist at the EnneaSummit 2024 for the Enneagram Practitioner Panel.
In this panel, we share our experiences and observations about what different Enneagram types think they need in therapy, what they actually need, and some important growth steps so they can grow beyond their type.
Panelists:
Whitney Russell Stabile, MS, LPC-S, CEDS-C (Type 1)
Eden Hyder, LPC, LCMHC-QS (Type 2)
Leslie Bley, LPC-S (Type 6)
Joanne Kim, LMFT (Type 4)
Get the EnneaSummit All Access Pass so that you can see the 30+ other talks, including with Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Curt Thompson!
Transcript
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I have four panelists with me, all of whom are professional therapists. We have some amazing panels today, as you can see on the schedule. We have a heart types panel, a gut types panel, a head types panel, a parents panel, but this particular panel is for creating some space to talk about mental health.
With some mental health professionals about their observations about each Enneagram type in therapy. So this panel is going to be perfect, for any Enneagram enthusiast looking to get insights or patterns about how their type approaches mental health, and maybe what some of the barriers might be to, you know, healing and growth, but this panel is also going to be perfect for therapists who use the Enneagram or are thinking about using the Enneagram more in their practice.
So without further ado, let me introduce you to our panelists. Um, we have, uh, Whitney Russell Stabile. Can you just wave so we can, and we have Eden Heider and then Leslie Bley and then Joanne Kim. And Eden is on the heart types panel along with Joanne. So you can go over to the heart size panel and hear a little bit more of their story.
But before we jump into our observations, I'd love for you guys just to give a little brief bio of yourself so we can get to know you. Whitney, would you mind going first? Sure.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): So I'm Whitney and I'm married to Joel Stabile and we have four wonderful kids. We're a blended family. So it's a yours, mine and ours situation.
So there's lots of lovely logistics that go along with that. Um, I've been a therapist since 2009 and, um, I'm a licensed professional counselor supervisor. I'm a certified eating disorder specialist consultant. I'm also EMDR trained, and I own a group practice called Brave Haven Counseling in Richardson, Texas.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Amazing. And you are type one, correct?
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yes, that is right. And you made the type one go first. Like I didn't get to learn what to expect from what everybody else said.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I know you're prepared. So, Eden, would you introduce yourself?
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yes, I am Eden Heider. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, formerly lived in Texas and partnered with Whitney in the past, um, which has been really fun.
I have a practice with my husband, Michael Heider, who's also a therapist. He's an Enneagram 9. I'm an Enneagram 2. And, the practice is called Inside Out Collaborative. Also have some creative projects that I've dabbled in over the years. One is a podcast called Inside Out Podcast, which focuses on attachment and providing kind of psychoeducational material on attachment and how to integrate that into our concepts of ourselves and our relationships.
And that's kind of where my specialty is as well as an eating disorders and, anxiety and depression.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Great Eden. Thank you.
And we have Leslie Bley who have interviewed on a past summit. And so it's good to have you back. Leslie, would you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I live in Austin, Texas. I have been a therapist for about 20 years. I'm an LPC and supervisor here and I am married to an Enneagram nine. I'm an Enneagram six and my husband and I have twin boys that are 13. So it is a lot of unique smells and sounds and sites in my house, but it's a lot of fun.
And then part of my practice is working with groups. I run a group for women throughout the year called Compassionate Community Therapy, and it's modeled after attachment and motion regulation, story work. And then I also run groups for therapists called Business Vitality, and it's to help support therapists who are often feeling super alone in their own formation and in their business sense.
And I come from a business background, but a therapist heart. And so I try to mix those in these support and business, you know, style groups. And then I also try to do regular Enneagram for counselors, uh, trainings and webinars since there's not a whole lot out there giving tons of real straightforward.
You know, credible ways to integrate this into our world. So that's me.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Thank you, Leslie. And not, but last but not least, Joanne Kim, would you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So I am an Enneagram and brain spotting therapist in the Silicon Valley. So in the San Francisco Bay area, and I, in classic or fashion where I get bored very easily, I have three businesses that now I think about on, like, I probably should have just stuck with the one, um, but, I love what I do, in my therapy practice.
A lot of my clients are nines, ones, twos, and fours. So most of the right side of the enneagram, because my people tend to struggle with a lot of anxiety, guilt, and shame. Partially because they have an allergic reaction to anger. So one of my hats is as an Enneagram therapist. So my other hats are around creating a, an online school for feelings, because there's a lot of things that I cover with my clients where they're like, I really wish I'd learned this in school.
And I'm like, got it. I will make one. So, um, that is my joy. It keeps me up at night. Just cause it's a lot of work, but, it's something that I feel like I've been brought on this planet to do so. I am a self preservation for, married to a social one. With my work wife who is a sexual tooth. And so I got both of my aerotypes covered and w definitely grow and stretch each other in all the interesting ways possible So happy to be here and happy to share things related to mental health and how the Enneagram helps inform our path forward.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Wonderful. Thank you so much, Joanne. Okay. So here's what we're going to do. We are going to go around the Enneagram starting with type one, and I want to spend about five to seven minutes or so on each Enneagram type, talking about maybe one or two observations that you all have, not all of you have to share about each type because we have to put some boundaries and limitations on our time.
It's hard enough to do, to talk about the Enneagram with one person for, for an hour, but it's, it's going to be a little challenging, but I think we're going to. We're going to be able to uncover some great stuff today. So let's start with type one and we can just, just jump in. And really, again, what we're trying to do is just to share some observations so that we can help people maybe recognize some patterns in their own type, and also to help some therapists who are interested in using the Enneagram in their practice to know what to expect if somebody wants to do the Enneagram and, and what to look out for.
So super excited about this, this conversation. So, anyone can jump in now. What about type ones? What do you, what are you seeing in your practice?
Perfection in Progress: How Enneagram Ones Navigate Trust and the Long Journey of Therapy
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): I'll say that sometimes type ones are looking for the perfect therapist, so they often struggle with just kind of the imperfection and journey of therapy.
Once they, it takes them a while to really trust a therapist because that inner critic and all of the, the deep shame that they have, like it's going to be a while before they're really vulnerable with that deep stuff. And then once they have established that bit, it's really hard to leave that therapist.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So you are saying that Leslie too, when they don't terminate, they just want to continue on in therapy for a really long time? Is that what you're saying?
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Yeah, or just not want to even consider transitioning maybe to a different modality. Maybe it's time to work on something from a different angle, but that trust is established and it just doesn't feel easy or good to leave.
And that's been my experience with multiple Enneagram Ones.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah, I like thinking about Ones as the improvers, because often they're like called the perfectionists and reformers, and I think that applies to some Ones, but the spirit of the term improver I think captures like the intentions of those who are Ones, and Often other people experience them as being like critical or judgmental, but it's really from this like sense of being connected with this ideal of like the perfect world or how the world ought to be.
And so it can be really lonely for a lot of ones who have that sense because other people don't see it. And so I think one of the things that often get missed with ones is that sadness from. Not being seen in one's experiences, being on this like mission to like help the planet be better. And then also being misunderstood and rejected by other people.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Do you guys see any particular mental health challenges or disorders? I know a few of you specialize in eating disorders and things like that. Do you see any patterns there with type 1s?
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Do you guys see any particular mental health challenges or disorders? I know a few of you specialize in eating disorders and things like that. Do you see any patterns there with type 1s?
Type 1s tend to be more on the like, Restrictive behaviors and or over exercising everyone. I tell people like when they slip over into seven, there might be some binging there, but then they'll come back to one and then be mad at themselves for all the things that they did at seven.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That makes sense.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): That;s control.
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah, exactly. I was going to say, there's a, there's a, a need for that. Yeah. That structure, which I think that the passion for justice, which comes from that really sweet space, almost that, that connection to that ideal that you were talking about Joanne, that need for control and structure.
And I think the eating disorder can really. As well as maybe other mental health systems can offer like a respite from the world, which feels out of control or from their emotions, which feel out of control at times.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I'd say like, anxiety and depression has a certain flavor for ones in that. I mean, I think for ones like depression doesn't look how we typically think of depression like being in one's feels and like, just like, you know, whining and complaining, but it's more of like the existentially type, like in being more resigned, being resigned, like, I don't get to have my wants and needs because like I have to always be on and be responsible.
And so it's kind of one's own individuality, personal wants and needs kind of take the back seat if it's like available at all. And so there's this, I mean, I think that's partially why there's so much resentment buildup, but it's not necessarily just resentment because other people aren't willing to show up for them.
Once I've actually eliminate that option for other people by stepping into those roles themselves first, but to step away from that feels really scary because then it's out of control and out of their agency. It's kind of a cycle that they get into.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Ones usually do look super functional and a lot of the mental health stuff that they're going through like even with OCD or depression, anxiety, eating disorders are usually still very functional, which I think is one of the reasons why it's hard for them to see that there that there's a problem.
Like, my therapist tells me I'm a long sufferer. Like, it takes me a long time. To actually like acknowledge that there's a problem because I can be so functional.
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): And isn't that kind of the power of anger as your core emotion to like keep You feeling active. It's very energizing. Right. Doesn't feel depressed.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Alright, let's move on to type 2. I'm curious about Eden's experience.
Boundaries & Burdens: Navigating Shame & Stability in Enneagram Twos
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah.
Oh man. Yeah. When I see type 2's, I think I see it's because there's so much relational instability um, or distress distress And it's the relationship or the relational instability that brings them in, which is often interpreted as their own failure. They've, they're failing in the relationship. And so they're coming in, um, and I think that can translate to a lot of resentment.
Sometimes it can go into a lot of shame, a lot of shame. And I think kind of what you said, Joanne, like telling a one, like. What if you tried to not improve? What if you tried to actually get worse, get worse? Right. In a way, I'm telling it to is what if you tried to set boundaries, it feels, you know, counterintuitive to a two that's struggling with their relationship because that feels like you're creating more conflict.
You're creating more distress. And that is really anxiety-provoking.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): For, I tell two is like, we have to set boundaries. But then the second part is you have to reinforce the boundary and you also have to manage your own feelings about reinforcing the boundary because there is that fear of the disruption in the relationship, but also the shame and guilt that they feel after they set the boundary.
Usually tends to allow them to not reinforce the boundary later. It’s like, they'll say, no, I'm not going to do that. And then they feel so much shame and guilt about saying no. And then they're like, okay, I'll do it. Yeah, there's 2 parts to the boundary battle.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So boundary work is just gonna be a big deal when, when twos in, in therapy.
And I'm next door as a three to the twos. And I, I, I resonate with, with that as well, like setting a boundary with kids or in parenting or anything. And then feeling like the bad guy for, for doing that and then having to wrestle with that. So I, uh, yeah, that's really insightful.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Usually have to give a disclaimer to like two clients who are coming in for therapy.
I'm like, well, I have to kind of assess where they are 'cause. If someone is like, really fused with the type 2 structure, then it's like, well, relationship is everything and so they come in for therapy. As long as their relationship, there's some stuff going on, but then once they resolve those relationships, they're like, well, I'm done.
Right? So they just like, leave, but there are a lot of people who come in and they're like, I don't know why I keep getting in the cycle where, like, I'm putting in so much work. Yeah, in these connections and like, why won't they love me type of thing. And so with those people, I'm like, I'm just going to give you a heads up.
You're going to come in thinking that the main thing is related to relationships. And what is actually going to happen is we're going to work on your connection with yourself just to give them a heads up. Cause not everyone wants that. And so then they can like move on to the next best spot. It's like, people who do know about the enneagram have an easier time sitting with that idea and that they keep like, getting themselves into the cycle.
They can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That’s really helpful, Joanne. That it's sort of therapy's sort of a conditional on a relationship. You might think, well, I need help because this relationship's out of whack. I need help on that. And then I'll leave. And you're like, no, stay, stay.
We need to work on, on you. That's good. Yeah.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): But I think if people are in that place, like as therapists, I'm like, sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. If anything else comes up in the future, let me know, just kind of leave the door open because I think twos are also more attentive to the relationship between them and the therapist and so like, I, I try to be more mindful about not imposing an agenda that might get them to like, make sure that I'm okay. Or I like them. So I kind of leave things a bit more open ended and it's like, yeah, whatever you're bringing in, like, let's work on that. And if they seem like, you know, I don't know if there's some, something more to this, then I might bring things up more directly. Um, because even knowing what's going on behind the scenes for twos might feel really painful because it feels so embarrassing compared to like fours who like, want you to tell them like all the. Deep dark. It's like, they're usually like, I want you to tell me that I'm not okay with them. I need to take it more lightly.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I think Michael Sheehan pointed out that in my interview with him, that a lot of times twos are so nice. They're asking him lots of questions. He's like, no, we need to ask you, I need to ask you the questions.
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. I have twos that will, they just, They, they need those, like, first couple minutes of like, checking in with me almost.
And, and we've discussed that and, and made that kind of a part of our contract just to kind of ease them into the process. And I do think twos can struggle. With therapy, especially if they haven't been in therapy before, they may need know that they need help and know that they need to be there sitting in the room, but be very uncomfortable with the focus being on them and not really know what to do without data coming from the other person.
About how they're doing, what they need, how they should be in the room with the therapist.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): It's that whole dependency situation. A two really defines themselves based on what the feedback they're getting from the person that they're sitting there in relationship with currently, and if they're not getting any of that, they don't know what to do. You know It's that whole dependency situation. A two really defines themselves based on what the feedback they're getting from the person that they're sitting there in relationship with currently, and if they're not getting any of that, they don't know what to do. You know, so they're really like, when we are challenging them and saying, listen, you're the one that we're going to focus on. You're the one that all the attention is going to be on. They don't know what to do with that. It's like kind of a little disorienting for them to be the focus and to not be getting that feedback about.
You're doing a good job or I really like you or, you know, like we're, we're vibing, you know, as the kids, the kids, yeah, the last thing that I'll say just very specifically as an eating disorder therapist. I have never had a two in my office that hasn't believed this belief that I'm about to say. They believe that the way their body looks is either going to keep somebody in relationship with them or separate and disrupt a relationship.
And so, Then managing how their body looks through, like, exercise or diet or whatever is like, really important because that is threatening to whether they will have the relationship, whether people will love them or not and I have never sat in a in a session with the two that didn't believe that.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Do you know if that's the case for different genders? TBD. I'll get back with you.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's really good. Okay, let's talk about type threes.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I don't find a whole lot of threes in my practice because they're often looking for coaches. Unless they're dragged into couples therapy and even then kind of things kind of flame out because. Yeah. The either the shape shifting nature of the three and trying to like look good in front of the therapist or they're like, this is not moving fast enough.
Like, let's go or feelings are too slow. Like, why are we bogging down the process? And so I, I, when I've worked with threes, I like, I feel like there's like a very small window in the beginning where I need to say a very concise version of why the Enneagram is important. And how their type 3 pattern fits.
So that I can, like, map out the sequence. And that we're right here, so this section in the middle might feel like a waste of time. But this is actually the fastest way to get there. And because of that window closes, then I'm like, I don't know if they'll just leave and they don't know if it was actually useful.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): I had every single 1 of those bullet points listed. So I agree. I do think that 3s can, whether they're coming, you know, is 1 thing, but I think they can be a little bit of a flight risk. It's like they've, they've worked just enough to find a little bit of relief. And then they, they're gone cause that patient is real that they have a, they really struggle with that.
The only other thing that I would say is like, if you've been working with the 3 and they've revealed some behaviors to you that aren't, you know, like, super pretty behaviors that they are really struggling with, they're probably not going to bring them up again. And so like, you have to be the one that kind of intentionally checks in with them about that.
Clients who struggle with porn or addiction or, you know, any other things, cheating. And so I have to be the one that's like, Hey, how are you doing with that? Cause they're not going to bring it up again.
Beyond Achievement: Uncovering the True Self of Enneagram Threes Through Relationships & Vulnerability
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. The threes that I've had in, in my office one day, Therapy can become another subcategory of their performance of their like, I want to accomplish something here.
And so they can show up as very on task and as very like, Oh, you did. Wow. You've accomplished all these things. You've done all these things, or, wow, you've done so much work, and a lot of, I've got a lot of circling back with them that I do and actually, what I've found really interesting with my three clients is family therapy or some type of family or couples where you're seeing them in the relationship where, where oftentimes they're not feeling as competent or there is right.
Something that's happened. And that's been, that's been probably the most revealing, you know, of seeing what's, what's there in a three and then also where I've seen so much healing as well.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So good. Type four. I'm just kidding. I'm a type, I'm a type of three. I just want to say this is really good. And I hope the three is listening. If there's any are receiving this because it's so, it's so valuable. What, I've done counseling once. And it's so hard and just signing up for it, going to the office and just feel this so attached to feeling like a failure.
Like, I must be doing something wrong to be in this office getting help. And I also think that, yeah, we can, if we're doing it alone, we can sort of be a chameleon and present our best self and be the best kind of client for you. Where when I do premarital counseling and I'm doing some, some. Pre marital counseling, with a couple of different, a few different couples right now.
And it's really helpful to see them with another person in the room because you can see the reactions, how they communicate. So I really, I like that Eden. I think that's really helpful to know is you can get to know the three a little bit better when you're. So good. Type four. I'm just kidding. 'm a type, I'm a type of three. I just want to say this is really good. And I hope the three is listening. If there's any are receiving this because it's so valuable. What I've done counseling once. And it's so hard and just, just signing up for it, going to the office and just feel this so attached to feeling like a failure.
Like, I must be doing something wrong to be in this office getting help. And I also think that, yeah, we can, if we're doing it alone, we can sort of be a chameleon and present our best self and be the best kind of client for you. Where when I do premarital counseling and I'm doing some, some. Pre marital counseling, with a couple of different, a few different couples right now.
And it's really helpful to see them with another person in the room because you can see the reactions, how they communicate. So I really, I like that Eden. I think that's really helpful to know is you can get to know the three a little bit better when you're.
Dealing with them, because a lot of times that friction will be in their relationships because they'll be working so hard and that's what it will be that their spouse or their kids will feel neglected.
They're burnt out all those things and as a self press 3 kind of like a 1 kind of like a self press for like, we can be very like masochistic, very like. Just grinding, grinding, grinding, and no one knows that anything's wrong under the surface.
So it takes a lot for me to actually show if there's something wrong.
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): When something you just said, Tyler, with The threes I've gotten to work with and I've, I've had a handful that have just come, you know, to improve. Two things. One is generally when there's like a pretty decent sized stressor to that happens during our relationship, that therapy totally jettisons into something different.
Really starts to get to the heart of things, but almost like with a seven, you, sometimes there needs to be kind of a catalyst, whether it's someone else in the room or a marriage that falls apart or a relationship or a job that falls apart that was really on their milestone benchmark list, that they really begin to do the actual feeling work that is more balancing for them.
And the other thing is there's so much, and this is heart triad, there's, They want to achieve in work and in relationships. There's such a tension I see with threes of succeeding in marriage and family and succeeding in jobs and that sort of work life balance, tension that they have to find at some point.
And I think that's been really neat to watch. They have such big, you have such big hearts, not just trying to climb the ladder, you know, at your job. You also want to be the best dad or the best. Or, you know, I appreciate that tension for threes.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Great thoughts, Leslie. Yeah. I think that's just helpful to, for threes to help us normalize getting help, counseling, that just part of the process of life that you're not a failure, or doing something wrong.
It's, it's normal. That's really helpful to have that people remind us of that.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So in the Bible for therapists, the DSM that highlights all these mental health disorders, whatever, in the personality disorder section, there's basically a go to personality disorder for all of the nine types, except for type three.
And I think that's partially because the United States is a very three ish 3 ish, 8 ish culture, and there's a lot of image orientation, things like that. And so. And I'm also, you know, in the Silicon Valley, which is I think very geared towards threes, like the social context really matters in that if a three has shapeshifted into being the successful persona, according to their immediate context, they're not going to be able to see that their personality patterns themselves are an issue.
That's why everyone else usually complains about the three instead of the person realizing it for themselves. And so there are certain professions like, anyone who has a public, platform or a pulpit who thinks that they're doing really well, not knowing that that's actually reinforcing their ego structure.
And so I think it's important for different organizations like communities, churches, whatever, to recognize that. It is a magnet for certain personalities. And that when they shine, that's actually their ego talking. It's not really who they are. And that's part of the reason why it's so hard for the threes to actually get help because they don't know that they're struggling.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah, I totally agree with that, Joanne. And I wish I could elaborate on that, but, for the sake of time, we'll keep moving here, but I think you said enough really helpful things for, for threes. Okay. Let's, let's move to type fours. What do you want to say about type four?
Joanne, do you want to jump in as a type, as our type four?
Therapy as a Playground: Challenging Enneagram Fours' Ego Trap and Shifting from Introspection to Action
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I mean, in fours fashion, I'm going to say something controversial. So, disclaimer, I think therapy, psychotherapy itself is a fours playground. Because therapy is designed in helping people focus on their internal world and their thoughts and feelings and their past and their trauma and all that kind of stuff.
And to like, you know, really do all this intersectional work that fours know how to do for free. They can do it on their own time. And so I think the trap for fours is that they seek therapy and like end up becoming the therapist's favorite client because the therapist doesn't need to do much work because the four clients already there doing the things that a therapy client is supposed to do.
And I think there's kind of this feedback loop that happens where the four client doesn't necessarily get healthier. Because their ego pattern is just playing itself out in therapy. And so it's important for therapists to know that is the bias that's baked into the profession of therapy, kind of like how coaching can be very like three ish, eight ish, and that my style as a therapist has changed over time to be more coaching like, because what a lot of for clients need is not more focusing on feelings and dredging up all the gunk.
But to get their asses in gear and to like, say, Hey, these things you think is not available to you. And that's why you're struggling so much, partially because you've identified with being a suffering person. But what if you actually have good things readily available to you already? It's not out there somewhere and maybe the only thing that's needed is for you to actually like, Map out the concrete steps and break it down into smaller pieces and actually follow through with those steps in the type one ish Aero type way not a lot of fours are up for that And so in that sense, I think it takes some discernment on the therapist part to recognize like what's the nature of client?
I'm working with here. If there are four are they here to reinforce their identity as a suffering person? Or do they recognize the trap that they're caught in and they want something different? Because if, if that's the case, we need to not do therapy as well. It's traditionally been, we actually need to do more action orientation and more body work.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So, brilliant Joanne. Thank you for sharing that. Cause I know there's a lot of, uh, fours watching. I can see a lot of fours getting excited about this summit and a lot of therapists are fours, they're just brilliant at this, so what you shared the kind of the caution there, or the kind of pattern to look out for is just extremely beneficial.
The conversation. So I'm so glad to have you here to share that.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): So, brilliant Joanne. Thank you for sharing that. Cause I know there's a lot of fours watching. I can see a lot of fours getting excited about this summit and a lot of therapists are fours, they're just brilliant at, at this, so what you shared the kind of the caution there, or the kind of pattern to look out for is just extremely beneficial.
The conversation. So I'm so glad to have you here to share that.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, I, I agree with all of that. Like, I think that my job. Working with four is to help them like organize their thoughts and emotions because they can just sit there and swirl And go down deep into them and my job and i'm good at it because i'm a one and that's what I do It's like these go here these go here these go here and now we're gonna now we need to make a plan. You know like holding them accountable to the action um, because I think they The other piece and you touched on this, but like they over identify with their feelings so much like sometimes they really fear any kind of healing.
So it's like, hey, what if we aren't this depressed person anymore? Or what if we aren't like, Really riddled in the shame what then, you know, they don't know who they would be because they over identify with those feelings so much that it can, like, even just imagining a place where they don't experience that is really hard and familiar.
And the other thought was, they, whether they have it or not, they can present as looking like they have ADHD. And attentive type because they can get so distracted by all the shiny objects. And because they are repressed doing, they don't get a lot done and they struggle with like motivation to do ordinary tasks.
And that's what I see a lot. And my clients is. It's like, whether they actually do have ADHD or not, sometimes I just treat them as if they do. And it usually works.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): This is, this is so good. Do you guys find that force? Do they, do you feel like they're so introspective that they don't need therapy?
Or do they kind of, once they get into therapy, like type ones, they kind of stay in therapy for a long time? What, what have you guys observed?
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Introspection is not self awareness. If they keep recycling the same thing over and over again. Yep. They're more self focused She's so part of it. You're a little
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): echo chamber.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah. Yeah, and so focusing on relationships, I think is an important way in To the self, to the fours work, because other people are in the floor fours slash zone. So there's a lot of this like push and pull dynamic or like pursuer withdrawer dynamic where like, kind of depending on what type of the other people are, if it's, let's say a group context, like work or community, family, church, whatever, it's like, Being the black sheep, the whistleblower, the rebel, like exile, whatever.
There's kind of like a social role piece to the four. And then if it's more of like a one on one relationship, it's like, like magnets, like that switch back and forth. If the person's closed, they get bored and they want the drama and the intensity because they're intensity junkies. And so they're like, I don't want, I don't want to be around you.
Or like, I don't deserve to be around you. And then when the person's far away, I was like, Oh, I missed you so much. That whole thing. So I think because relationships are more concrete than existential, you know, deep purpose, meaning oriented topics where, you know, force can have ideas of the people they're in relationships with and there's the actual people involved.
So sometimes like inviting in their partner or their family member might be helpful so the therapist can see, Oh, like. I had this whole idea. Of this person based on how the four describe them. And now I see this person as they actually are. And there's a world of a difference.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good. Introspection is not self awareness.
That is really a good statement.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Fours will get offended by that though. I'll just give you a heads up.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Well, before we go to fives, I, I just want to say, I do appreciate all the fours watching and the, those who are therapists, you know, you look at guys like Dr. Kurt Thompson and other fours who are just leading voices.
Cause they, it's just, they get the internal world there when they're healthy. They're just, Prophetic in our culture, uh, and really helpful, especially right now, since post COVID, since there's just a boom of people that are needing help and coming to you guys. So we, yeah, I, I really appreciate the fours and I want them to hear that before we, before we transition to fives.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Very short. Self preservation fours are the fours that don't look like fours. They look like all the other types. Depending on their mood. And the main piece for them is that they're the ones who suffer silently solo and they get mistyped a lot and sometimes get turned off by the Enneagram because of that.
And so for self pressed fours, they need, their growth path involves Practicing more of the traditional four ish behaviors, like complaining more often in real time to more people, which feels like pulling teeth, but it's absolutely necessary for them to recognize just how much they're struggling outside of this idea of, I need to be a strong person who can withstand a lot of things.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): It's good, Joanne. Thank you. All right, let's transition to fives. What do you guys have for fives?
I don't see many fives unless they're brought in for a marital. So I'm, I'm curious. About the rest of you and your experience with fives.
Breaking Down Barriers: Navigating the Emotional Guard of Enneagram Fives in Relationships
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): I would agree with that. Leslie, when I, when I see fives coming in, it's with a partner, often, and it's when I, when I think about attachment styles, I think about that avoidant attachment style.
So you've probably got an avoidant attached person, the partner that's fucked any room five, and then you've got them paired. Maybe with an anxious style and they activate each other and they're coming in to kind of work on that.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): And man, just the one triggering the other triggering the other. Yeah.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. I've noticed you just doing Ingram work, not as a therapist. It's really hard to get them to open up because of the privacy. They have such good boundaries and they don't want me talking about the Enneagram a lot of times because it feels like I'm getting to their reading their mail, jumping over the fence, getting into the castle and can very, very uncomfortable.
And so that's interesting to hear you guys kind of say that you've experienced a little bit of that in therapy as well, that it's kind of hard to get, get over the wall or those privacy fences.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah. My experience with fives. I've, I've seen a couple and you won't get the full picture until you've been working with them for like a year and then they'll drop this bomb on you and they're like, Oh my God, everything makes sense.
Now it's like this really pertinent piece of information. And then you finally get the full picture and then you're like, all right, now we can do some work.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Oh, my goodness.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): It's fascinating. It's fascinating. It happened to me with one of my fives I was working with recently. I was like, why have we never talked about this?
And she's like, you know. She never asked. She knows the Enneagram too. So we kind of had a good laugh about it.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Besides like relationship issues, professionally fives can struggle a lot. Because they spend so much time in their head and don't take a whole lot of action being actually repressed, like they can mull over something in for forever and then make a decision kind of more reluctantly because there's like a deadline or like stuff like that.
And so they might extend a whole lot more mental energy than the task actually requires. So that's been a struggle that I've. seen quite often and um, either teammates at work or spouses get super frustrated because like there's this delay effect.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Leslie, I think you were going to share something in. And then I also want to hear from you guys if there's any like general anxiety disorder or if there's any other disorders that you see with fives.
I would be curious to know what you see.
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Well, I was just going to say, similar to Joanne sharing about, um, the space and the time need. I see a lot of fives that need the encouragement to be allowed to answer questions off the cuff, which is very uncomfortable for a lot of fives. They would prefer to speak accurately and accuracy takes time and reflection and information. And so being allowed to say, you can change your answer down the road. We're not holding you to this. I would just love to hear what you are. able to track or notice and you can circle back anytime it's okay to not quite get it, but there's this, there's just a tension around speaking off the cuff for a lot of fives and therapy is so in the moment so often.
And I think that I've seen that barrier.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. One thing I've noticed with my own mother is a type five is maybe this is Like the, like share with the ones, they, they're looking for the perfect therapist like I know for my mom, my mother is a five and a wonderful five. There's only like a particular kind of person that she'll go to.
And so maybe is it a little bit like that too? Does it maybe fives have a hard time of going to a therapist that they view as maybe competent or, You know, I don't know if you've seen that, but I was just thinking about that off the top of my head.
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): I wonder if there's a conflict between what they want and what they need when they're looking for a therapist.
What they, what they're wanting is someone who's right, as intellectual as they are, can kind of recite things to them, can lay it out very, um, rationally and logically, but maybe what they need is someone who can sit there and hold space and invite the emotion, invite the questions, invite uncertainty, and let that be a safe place for them to feel that.
But I think there's a conflict there.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): If there's any further thoughts, you can jump in. Otherwise let's move to type six.
Embracing the Pendulum: How Naming Duality Brings Freedom and Clarity to Enneagram Sixes
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): This is my number. I can jump in and say something since I'm a six and I've done a lot of therapy, on both sides of the chair. I really think being allowed to name, and this is how the Enneagram changed my life and it felt again, like kind of somebody had put Jumped into my backyard and had been stalking me and all that exposure was, was challenging.
But to name these dualistic experiences of having some love hate for things, having some fear and courage for things, having this extreme dependent times and extreme independent times, almost showing up like disorganized attachment, if you're familiar with kind of the sort of bifurcation of, of both anxious and avoidant styles.
And there's just a lot that feels kind of like this internal turmoil. And until a lot of sixes get any, Enneagram language, they can just feel kind of crazy. Anything from paranoid to, bipolar to, I mean, just to have somebody name this internal phobic to counter phobic continuum in a way that's safe and feeling seen and loved in that and where the gifting is in that, I think, is is huge for sixes.
And it's been really important for my own freedom, my own work to not feel like I am two different people, even though I can experience these extreme differences and this back and forth. That's really good. Leslie.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah, Leslie, I'm married to a six, so I wish I would have heard that 18 years ago to know that I was marrying a, a bundle of opposites who could, you know, swing on a pendulum and.
And to just show compassion and have empathy for that and come alongside them and not, not freak out about it.
I wonder if one thing that gets outsourced by sixes is power and authority, disconnecting from their own power and authority, projecting it outwards, and then someone else takes on that power and authority.
And then the six, depending on the subtype, have different ways of interacting with the projected person. So having this sometimes conflictual relationship with authority figures or like completely fusing and aligning with them and that because of that the growth path for six is involved Recognizing that a lot of their mental activity or their anxiety or whatever comes from them having disconnected from their own power their work is to Bring that back, take ownership, make a decision, be decisive, and then own the outcomes of their decision knowing that they can make new decisions along the way so that they don't need to make this huge big decision up front that might set them off on a forever path and having more boldness and courage to face reality.
Each moment for what it is.
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I mean, just saying to sixes, what do you want in this situation? What are you thinking? What are you hoping for? What's been working for you? What's not been working for you? Anything that they can name on their own. Cause we're, we're a both and. We are a flight risk cause we get suspicious that you're seeing something wrong with us.
And we are over relying on authorities. And so there's kind of this, um, challenge there. We don't want to over rely on a therapist authority. We need to develop that gut centered self attachment. But then we also don't, we can be a flight risk if we feel unsafe or we perceive something is unsafe in the relationship.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): The one thing that I'll say about working with sixes is that, you know, they, because they're thinking dominant and thinking repressed. They are really good at rationalizing a lot of their fears and all of their worst case scenarios and They do really value their ability to kind of scan the horizon And so like a therapist does have to be very gentle and they're challenging of those like thinking patterns because A six identifies with them very strongly.
And so if you're like, hey, that's not totally real, or that's not totally a great way of thinking, that, that can be really challenging for the therapeutic relationship. So you have to be really gentle in how you challenge some of their anxieties and some of their fears.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I think to Leslie's point, and then what, what you shared.
Whitney, that's just me talking, not as a therapist, cause I'm not one, but just from experience of having, you know, maybe being married to a six and then also having a counterphobic six son, there's lots of conversations about authority, and I'm not sure if that plays out in therapy with, with sixes of like, maybe, you know, kind of directing your attention towards some of those issues in their life and helping them work through issues of authority, like being, uh, overly trusting of authority.
Like I know my wife is very trusting of me. It makes me makes me wonder sometimes like I think she's she's leaning on me too much or trust me too much. Like she's fighting for me like an eight. And I'm like, I don't know if I deserve that. And or she should be doing that. She's just so like loyal, you know, to me.
And then my son is just, you know, rebel kind of as a counterphobic six, just rebels against all authority, even, and he's like a master rationalize, rationalize, or you know, he finds ways to get out of being under my authority.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): It also sounds like your son has a seven wing. He's able to figure out how to get out from under your authority pretty easily or quickly.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): I don't know. I mean, it feels like he acts as it's both pretty well. Anything else, uh, observations on sixes? Oh, go ahead, Eden.
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. I was just going to say, as you said, authority, I really thought of the word safety. And I think that is, that is what authority and like that's the testing of authority and the counter is a counter phobic, right?
That pushes against the is really wanting to know that they're safe, that they're going to be safe right. In these, in these relationships in life. And, and when I when I'm working with sixes, I think that's part of the work that I do. Even like, Hey, what's what makes you feel safe in this room?
Right? Like kind of building up that internal sense and intuitive sense of safety and power, Joanne, like that there's, they can hold that sense or what gives them that sense on their own apart from. These outsourced source of power
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): lines, like moving away from polarization and more integration that they can be steady and exposed to risk all at the same time, that one does not negate the other, but it's more like knowing how to rest in that in between
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): and build up the tolerance for feeling unsafe sometimes, because.
Yeah, it is not a safe. This is not a safe world in a lot of ways. It's not guaranteed, right? And so building the eat and I love your, like, what is safe for you? How do we create that? But then at the same time, building the tolerance around not always feeling safe, but feeling connected and embodied, like Joanne was saying, that's so important.
Then the more you, the more sixes trust their gut, the more they can weather unsafe times, unsafe or truly unsafe experiences.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): This has been great guys, talking about issues, authority, safety, like you mentioned, Eden, helping them to feel safe. No, you know, a lot of sixes struggle with, with anxiety.
And so helping them with that and helping to give them compassion for outworking of their strength of protecting of seeing what could go wrong in order to protect Their loved ones. And so that they feel like they're hardwired with vigilance, uh, for a positive reason to, to protect. And you can see why they would get anxious.
That vigilance is starting to get out of hand a little bit, but just to be a source of. Bring a sense of reassurance and comfort to them to help them to realize that they're not the problem, that this is, there's not something wrong with them, is, is incredibly helpful. Okay, should we, let's move to type sevens.
Navigating the Painful Paradox: Understanding Enneagram Sevens and Their Unique Relationship with Hardship
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): That hard is harder for sevens. That is my internal mantra. And I believe it and I feel for them in it.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Does anybody want to build off of that? Hard is harder? What you mean by that, Leslie? Or or anything you want to, else you want to share?
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I mean, what I mean by that is the tolerance for suffering, if it hasn't been, been built and it gets built in different ways, and often it gets built in ways you didn't sign up for, but the tolerance for pain, the tolerance for hard things for, taking responsibility for themselves, for moving away from satisfaction and demand from.
moving away from more is more. It just seems to me that their capacity and tolerance around suffering is just very challenging for them. Very, if it doesn't, if it can't kind of be moved forward quickly or bypassed with, information or something, it's, it's just so hard. To weather, a lot of the pain of just suffering of various kinds.
So to me, I really do feel for them that the hard feels a lot harder, um, than maybe some of us might approach hard. And
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): I would almost say it's like, they're not even experiencing the suffering. So it's almost like they're not, they haven't like built a tolerance. There's so much compartmentalization of the suffering.
I'm married to a seven, so I, I can talk all day about what goes on with the seven. In my experience, sevens do have a lot of addiction. There's a lot of suicidal ideation, sometimes even suicidal attempts, can have a lot of anxiety, but a lot of anger at the same time. As a therapist, you will need to catch their reframing at like every turn.
Because you'll say something and challenge them and then they'll bring something else up to kind of negate what you said. And it's very rational and logical, but you gotta, you gotta catch them in it. Cause like you were saying, Tyler, like about your son, which was what was making me think that, you know, that seven wing, like they're so good.
At arguing and coming up with all different kinds of reasons about why something will work or, you know, whatever their, whatever their side of the argument is, they're so sophisticated and so quick at being able to come up with arguments for their side. And that is one of the reasons why it's really hard for them to be for them to change.
And even to be motivated to change and like, they do have to have some internal motivation or it's not going to happen. Like external motivators don't really do it. You know, I'm often telling my clients or even my clients who have 7 children, you know, like. You can try to give them all the consequences you want, like, life ultimately is going to be what teaches them those lessons, those like, unchangeable situations that they can't just negotiate themselves out of, those are the things that are going to be motivating to them, and Finally give them some kind of internal motivation for change.
They can have a lot of difficulty making life decisions. They can have difficulty caring for themselves. And I honestly think because they are, you know, that they're repressed and feeling, and they have no. intuitive line or access to feeling and emotions like emotion education and awareness is a non negotiable treatment goal.
Like, sometimes they will say that they know what emotions are, but like, do they actually experience them and emote them and talk about them with their loved ones? Like that takes so much work for a seven to be able to do and it takes a lot of patience for them as well.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Those are good thoughts, Whitney.
So what, when do, when does a seven show up in your guys office? What's, what's happened? Can you speak to that? Is it an addiction?
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Sometimes I think it's like the people in their lives that are like, we can't do this anymore. Like you have got to do something, you know, a lot of times sevens will Work their way into a relationship where the other people are changing so that they don't have to change other people are kind of picking up the slack or enabling their behaviors in a lot of ways and so a lot of times it is like the people in their lives are like listen we're not going to do that anymore and having to hold that firm firm boundary with them. That's when I see them or addiction
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): for sure.
I like thinking about sevens and the context of the idealist triangle along with ones and fours, like the three legged stool. We need all three legs to be even. It kind of like also overlaps with like the internal family system model of like the ones being the grownup, the fours being the teenagers and the sevens being the kids, but we have all of them, regardless of our type.
And when we overly rely on one leg of the stool and we underutilize the other ones, then things are just going to fall apart at some point. And so the piece that I think sevens outsource to other people, suffering responsibilities, type four, type one. And so like somebody else in their life probably occupies those positions, even if they're not ones and fours, like, there's a lot of sevens on relationships with very responsible people and they get, they get resentful.
So, you know, drag the seven into calls therapy or whatnot. But up until then, part partners or family members are the ones who are just putting in so much. And that is that external motivation like they're getting sevens are getting all this pressure from the outside because they themselves don't want to do it.
It's not personally important to them. They just need to wait out storm of the other person's complaints and eventually the person's going to give up and they're just going to do it themselves until the relationship gets so strained that the person who's been kind of nagging or whatever. It's like, I ain't doing this anymore.
I'm out. And then all of a sudden, the seventh, so I was like, well, where'd you go? And then they have all these bills to pay and like things that they completely neglected. So I think, I think a lot of times the way to get a seventh attention is that rock bottom experience, either through addictions or divorce or whatever.
They lose their job, where they don't have any more options literally available to them. And if the seven happens to make their way into therapy and they're open because they have no other options and life has already fallen apart, I like using the metaphor of the human body made of flesh and bone. If you have no structure in the human body and the, you know, it's just a bag of skin and organs on the floor, that person's not living.
In the same way that a person who's all bones and no flesh is not living either. So, structure, order, organization, responsibility, the things that the seven resists actually bring about the very life force that makes life as beautiful as it is. So, if sevens are seeking freedom, to thinking that freedom equals no limits, then they're going to paint themselves into a corner where they're completely restricted.
The opposite of which is if they actually choose limits and self limits, self imposed limits, which is basically taking responsibility. Then they have all these options available. So I think like there's some part of like maybe mentally or intellectually, like mapping that out for them saying like, I know you want freedom.
I want that for you too. Let's not get into a power struggle between the service and the client, but how can you actually give real freedom for yourself? Yeah. By voluntarily opting into some of these responsibilities. I think the power struggle piece is pretty big with sevens because they're very good at weaseling their way out of it.
And so I think it's important for therapists to not get it caught up in that either By becoming the next nagging person. So having a more neutral like more passive. Sure.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): It's good Joanne some really deep and profound thoughts there as we move to type X, we have to keep moving here and we have two more types, but I'll just make a note that.
You know, my, for, if you're, if you have a friend or family member or partner, that's assertive type, like a three, seven, or eight, or maybe a five, who doesn't want to open up. It's okay to, to, to call them out and say, Hey, I'm not okay with this anymore. This behavior, we need to go and get help. I, you know, I didn't want to get help in my marriage was struggling.
You know, maybe a four or five years in the marriage, but my wife has a six had the enough courage to say, to come out and say, this is not okay. You're working too much. You're always listening to hundreds of podcasts, filling your mind, like there's no space for me. There's a, this is a problem and she was, she will, she was able to do that as a six for nines, you know, and other times it might be harder to, to say that so we're just giving old permission here to, to come at the threes like me or the sevens or eights, if you're in married to an assertive type, or no assertive type, and it's just.
It's harder because they have more power, more energy and, but to have permission to call them out and say, Hey, we need to get some help. We'll keep you from getting stuck and so have the courage to, to get them into, to the counseling office. Okay. With that said, let's move now to the eights. What do you guys want to share about the eights?
What do you guys see?
Embracing the Power: Navigating the Intimidation and Progress Anxiety of Working with Enneagram Eights
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I love working with eights. Um, I didn't think I would because as a six, I can be intimidated by powerful frames, frameworks, words, energy, dominant energy, that kind of thing. But I, I really enjoy working with eights, but something Joanne said, I see it, you said around threes and I think it's similar with being able to describe, this is kind of what the counseling process is.
This is what you may be frustrated by, but just know that you can get through that. We're going to get to this kind of outcome. I feel like aides in my caseload are the most likely to wonder if we're making enough progress or if they have enough of a sense of our, are we doing the things we should be doing with our time or there's just a lot of that evaluative presence around outcomes, progress.
And so I think like you said, outlining some of the ups and downs of this a linear experience can be helpful to validate for them, but it isn't going to be, maybe that linear and so, um, to normalize that early. And empathize with that early.
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Leslie, I love what you said about like, when it's coming to the room and the dominant energy, I know immediately when an eight comes to the room, because you, I feel that wave of intimidation.
Right. And you're like, okay, here we are. Right. Like, gotcha. Right. Like and, and then being able to, I think in my attachment work as a therapist, I understand that as this is. Take this as this is how people outside of this room can experience this individual. And this is an experience that they have, and they, and they have that experience of people reacting against this intimidation.
And that may be part of why they're coming into the room.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good Eden.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): In my experience working with eights, their future orientation is often what is giving them so much trouble, like within in relationships or even with themselves. Like they have a hard time like stopping. And pausing and attending to like their own physical pain or their own emotional pain because they're doing dominant they can like shut all that off and just like get the job done and move on to the next thing so that anything like any pain is often cannot be attended to.
And so. Having them slow down is really important and the thing that I see sometimes is like, we'll talk about a problem or an issue, especially an emotional one or something that's causing some kind of relational conflict. And then the next session, we don't talk about it again. And I'm like, Hey, we gotta go back around to that thing.
I know you've already moved on to, like, the next problem or the next issue, but like, this is, this is a big deal. We need to. We need to keep giving this attention, um, and they sometimes don't like that, but it is that, that future orientation. She's like, okay, well, that's done. And now I'm moving on. And now I'm going to get on with the next thing.
I also see them struggle a lot at work and like, it's the same struggle with authority, but there's this, I think, very different because they often don't see an authority figure that's worth following. And I think that's or that's doing the job that they think should be done. And so just that like conflict they see so much with their bosses or like their organization at large, doing the things that they don't agree with can often cause a lot of frustration, a lot of anger, um, a lot of just dissatisfaction.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah, that's a good observation, Whitney. That you might be talking with an eight about, yeah, work dynamics, bosses, authority figures. That's really helpful. And going back to what you said, Eden, about the privilege of working up close with an eight and seeing some of their emotions and softer side that other people don't get to see that that was really sweet, the eights are, are so great when you can get up close, with them.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): My other son's a type eight. So yeah. You got a lot of energy in that house.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Yeah. I have a counterphobic six son and an eighth son and I'm a heart type. So I'm just like, just, yeah, yeah. Are you thankful for me? Do you love me? Why are you, why are you mad at me? That's how my, that's how my conversations go.
I realized I'm very high maintenance when it comes to. Meeting, like, love and affirmation back when, yeah, that's good.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): I think the action orientation of type eight forward movement for focus, not a whole lot of patience for the nitty gritty details that are like high level visionaries. Like, I just want this, let's get there.
Like what's in the way of why are you causing troubles? Like it's not complaining move. So in terms of like communication style with eights, I think this is a case for across all types when we're interacting with someone of a certain type, the more we double down in our own type, the more intense their patterns get.
On the other hand, if we move closer to them and act like they act generally, then that minimizes the polarization. So talking to an, a, you know, open chest, direct eye contact, like own your own power and engage them directly and get straight to the point. Don't explain a whole lot. Don't apologize. It's like, just.
Say the thing that needs to be said, say the action item, I think that would smooth out a lot of relationships just like off of that. Not all eights are angry all the time. I think that's a misconception. I think they're very big presence, very energetic, very intense. I think that maybe conflict, engagement, colliding with the eight is a form of intimacy.
So when other people pull away and they withdraw the aid, it's like, where'd you go? It comes after them. And then other people like, avoid the aid even further and that's a whole cycle. So, I think it's I think because opposites attract. Those who are in relationship with aids probably need to like, gear up and then actually own their power and strength.
And then the eight doesn't have to be as strong because someone else is doing it. Like even with like leadership, like eights don't sense that anyone else is like a good enough leader that they occupy the space. They don't themselves want to be the leader. And so I think in relationship context, that's a lot of where the eights patterns show up because relationships are in the blind spot of the eight.
And so I don't know if eights would readily. Here, like, in order for you to improve your relationships, therefore, you need to do X, Y, Z, because I don't know if they have the patience for that. But like speaking to them, like, if you want to make a bigger impact in your wife, then you have to know how to work with people.
And that is why it's important to work on relationships. It's kind of like coming in through the back door.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Well put Joanne. Okay. Let's, we got to move on to type Nate nines, uh, our last type. So let's, let's do it. Let's finish the, finish the circle here. What do you guys have for type nines?
Waking Up from Numb: Exploring the Hidden Struggles and Somatic Symptoms of Enneagram Nines
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): I'll jump in.
First off, my husband's a nine and the nines that I've interacted with in my office as well, there's such a loss of self that there's They they have no idea what they want or they want everything because everything sounds plausible right, and so there's there's kind of aimlessness. Maybe that's there.
I would also say that some nines may never even make it into the therapy office because their mental health symptoms become psychosomatic become enter their body instead of. Their, their mental health, it goes into a different category. So they're going to develop physical symptoms versus emotional symptoms.
I have nines that come in with like heart palpitations that develop or with digestive issues, and they're going to seek out support around that before they even come to a therapist, because that's the issue, not the emotions that have built up in their body.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's great, Eden. Yeah. That makes total sense.
Not even being a therapist, knowing that nine suppress their anger, deny their anger, but it's got to go somewhere. And so you're saying it shows up in the body. That's that's really insightful.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, they kind of want to avoid anything uncomfortable like uncomfortable emotions physical sensations Anything in relationships, it's uncomfortable.
They really will try to just not be present for it I had a client who gave me some really good analogies for nines and she was like It's like we play possum like something uncomfortable comes up and we're like, oh, bye They just kind of check out and they numb themselves so much. And so I think for nines, a lot of my work is just like honoring the feelings that they have instead of numbing the feelings they can be so hard to get to do any kind of like action oriented therapy work or like creating any kind of change.
So a lot of motivational interviewing. Again, you know, sometimes I have a lot of nines that show some like ADHD type symptoms. So there's a lot of kind of working through some of that. A good thing that I think it was, I think it was Joe Stabile. Suzanne's husband said one time that interesting relationship between nines and ones and anger and sadness, like when a nine is sad, they're actually angry.
And when a one is angry, they're actually sad. And so like nines do kind of tend towards more like depression or sadness. But when you really get down to it, they're probably actually really angry about something. And they've just never attended to that anger or like the boundaries that were violated or them not getting their needs met.
And so they're sad about it, but they're actually really angry. It's just so interesting to be. Kind of delving into that with them and a lot of the, like, kind of what Eden was saying, but also that more 10 tending towards depression do see quite a bit of suicidal ideation with nines as well.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Wow. That that's.
Very powerful, Whitney, the feelings having come out in sadness, I can see that with some nines to talking a lot about painful experiences in the past and continuing, continuing to talk about them and bring them up over and over again, being sort of sad about it, but it just, this, a loop that never stops.
So that, that's really helpful.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah. And it's like their orientation to the past is how they define themselves. And so it's hard for them to just process through everything in the past so that they can move forward. They get really stuck. Like you were talking about.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): And great plug for ones too, to realize for yourself when you're angry, to realize that you're really sad so we can have more compassion on our ones.
That's. I've been hearing some things about nines I've never heard before. This is very, there's very helpful for me. Any last thoughts on type nines?
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): I will just say that I've been encouraging nines to do group therapy. The individual relationship can be really intense for nines cause they don't always want to do that deeper process work or they don't want to go to the anger, which they have to in order to process pain, but group work can feel a little bit like more collaborative and it can also feel like they have some shared space and it's not so intense. On them, and that maybe they can kind of build some camaraderie, with other people. And I've just seen some really big shifts when I've sent clients that are nines to do group work alongside our individual work.
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): Yeah, to piggyback off of that, I mentioned earlier that like therapy itself is a very four ish space, and the four is known as the individualist, and I think that's the opposite for nines. In like blending in and merging with something else to not be a self like usually people think of like sloth as lack of activity there's a lot of action focus.
So I think for nines, it's a disconnection from self like falling asleep to oneself Disconnecting from self agency. So I think of nines like a card neutral gear or as type three. That line is like being the gas pedal and the type six being the brake pedal. You need all three to have a functioning car.
And so inaction is itself an action. And often nine to like say in relationships where I work, find themselves being more kind of reactionary to what others around them do. Not knowing that are the reason why the pressure is applied to them is because they've disconnected from their own initiative Engine, and so I've heard that like the most powerful type in all the Enneagram types is actually type 9, not type 8, not type 1, not the more like assertively known types, but when a 9 taps into their internal world like you better get out of the way. There's no stopping them. So I think a lot of body work is pretty good for better for worse.
I think nines tend to be conduits for energy. Absorbing other people's stuff or absorbing nature's energy and I think in that sense body movement Might be a good way to metabolize some of the uncomfortable experiences more than like top therapy or mental or emotional work.
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah, tacking on to that, Joanne, I will point my nines to, um, spending time in nature, going to a park, sticking their feet in the earth, you know, having some way of connecting with that animal therapy, right?
Pets can be a powerful resource for nines and then body work too, those are, because there isn't, there's no perspective there to merge to, right? It feels safe in a way. Yeah.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): And cause they spend so much of their time being hypervigilant and like assessing other people and perceiving and observing everyone else kind of looking out for conflict.
Like that goes right along with what you were saying, Eden, like if they can tune into their body or nature or animals, like they don't have to be hypervigilant. Be protecting themselves.
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): And the hypervigilance is very draining, very draining.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Whitney, I'd heard Suzanne say on, maybe it was in a conversation with me, I can't remember now, I think we were going around and talking about different correlations she had seen with mental health and she'd said like nines, she saw a lot of nines with ADD.
Which is now falls under the ADHD umbrella. And so the non, is it the non attentive kind of ADHD? Is that how you say it? So that's just something to be, to be aware of, uh, when you're working with nines, if you're a therapist. Or like that combined type. To you know, you mentioned Whitney, they can play possum, which is really good, a good illustration.
And just like sixes kind of swing in the pendulum of phobic to counter phobic. Do you guys experience nines is sometimes swing on the pendulum from like playing possum to then making dramatic moves. Do you see any of that that's causing any issues to be aware of? Leslie, you're nodding your head. Can you speak to that?
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Yeah, I think from session to session, I can see the inertia principle, like whether it's they've been in low energy and so there's tons of low energy in the session or they're in that inertia and there's lots of energy. And I, I think 9th, you know, both. They're one wing and just who they are, there's a lot of idealism.
And so sometimes I say this about nines, I don't know if I'm right, but it's like they can envision things in from a three space, but they can't carry them out. And so I'll see like big endeavors or big words without the work, but like big words about what's going to happen, what they're going to do, what they're going to tackle.
But I know they don't have the energy to match that. But we need to kind of titrate down to something that is doable so they can actually feel self esteem.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's good. That's helpful. I see some other people nodding, so I must agree with you, Leslie.
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, I usually at the end of every session with the nine, we have concrete goals that they're supposed to achieve between that session and the next one.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): That's so good. Whitney and I have, I have a type nine. Book club right now. And one guy just emailed me today saying that he had, he had read through it, but now being in a group with other nines, he's getting so much more out of it because they're challenging each other and spurring one another on.
And so I, I like what you guys said about maybe the group work, or even just being with you, being in a room with somebody else that can hold them accountable, set goals, like you just said, Whitney. That can be incredibly helpful for a nine. So if you're nine, just know that you don't have to do it, uh, by yourself or try to do, do it alone.
So yeah, that's really good. Okay, we're out of time. Please share where we can find you guys online, uh, any resources you want to point us to. Uh, let's, let's start with you, Whitney. I would love for people to continue to learn from you like, like I've learned from you today. So where can we find you?
Whitney Russell Stabile (Enneagram 1): Yeah, so my group practice is Bravehaven Counseling. We're in Richardson, Texas. Um, you can find our website. www.bravehavencounseling.com. And then on Instagram, our Instagram handle is @bravehavencounseling and my individual Instagram is @whitneylpc.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome. And all the links you've already given me.
So I'll put them down in the show notes. So people can easily click on those. So you don't have to take any notes right now. Thank you, Whitney. What about you, Eden? Where can we find you?
Eden Hyder (Enneagram 2): Yeah. So I'm counsel out of Charlotte, North Carolina, but I serve Texas and North Carolina when it comes to therapy work with individuals and couples and that practice is insideout collaborative.com. And then I also do attachment coaching with couples and individuals, outside of those States as well. So that there's a little bit about that at insideoutcollaborative.com, but also edenheider.com and my Instagram is @edenheider. And that podcast that has more attachment focused, material is Inside Out Podcast.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Awesome. Thanks, Eden. Leslie, remind us where we can find you again.
Leslie Bley (Enneagram 6): Yeah, just Leslie Bley Counseling. I have a team of therapists under me here in Austin. I'm also licensed in Missouri, so Texas and Missouri residents. If you're a therapist, you can find resources like Enneagram for Counselors and the Counselor Vitality Groups that are all on that same website.
And then I'm also enneagramconsultant.com for more professional use of the Enneagram with teams and companies that want that kind of lens for understanding their staff.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Great. Thank you, Leslie. And thanks for all the, yeah, the work that you've been doing and creating community for other counselors and therapists, that's, that's been really beneficial, and Joanne, where can we find you?
Joanne Kim (Enneagram 4): So, with my Enneagram therapist hat on, I'm in California in the Silicon Valley, and I have a freebie guide, The Emotional Habits of Enneagram Types. because each of the types have different ways of dealing with the emotions, MAD, SAD, GLAD, SCARED, and NUMB. I'm also a feelings translator on the side, and that's beyond the state of California as well.
And I built a school about feelings, and in a way that's not just for heart types. Uh, so that people of whatever types can recognize that emotions have a central spot in helping us be more well rounded. They have a logic of their own and there are some action items that go along with them. So, and you can find me at intelligentemotions.com or on Instagram @intelligentemotions.
Tyler Zach (Enneagram 3): Fascinating, a feelings translator, that's, that's incredible. And like feelings resource. That's why I appreciate having all of you on the, your different anywhere, you're going to have times, you're all have different strengths. And I just want to thank you for, for joining me.
I know it's really hard. You're all professionals. You have clients. It's hard to find a time to get us all together, but we did it. And I'm so thankful for you. And I know those watching are thankful as well to have learned from you. I know I learned from something, something from each of you guys that I didn't know.
Before, and so this was really helpful to me and I know it's helpful to the Enneagram enthusiasts out there, the therapists out there. So thank you so much for just carving out this space to be a blessing to so many people. And a reminder to those watching, make sure to go back and check out all the other panels today.
The heart types, the head types, so many great panels to listen to today to really get a feel for all the Enneagram types when it comes to their own. Personal mental health stories. So make sure to go and check those out today. And if you don't have time to watch all the panels today, you can get the all access past, which will give you lifetime access to all the panels and all the sessions and all the transcripts, for this whole, any summit.
So if that's interests you, make sure to go check out that, but so much for joining us today. Before you head over to the next interview, the next panel, remember to do two things, like seek support. And share compassion because you are not alone.
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© Copyright 2023 Joanne B. Kim. All rights reserved.
JOANNE B. KIM, LMFT
Joanne is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Brainspotting Practitioner in San Jose, CA. She helps people EXHAUSTED by anxiety, shame, and an allergic reaction to anger create VIBRANT relationships where they matter, too.
Many of her clients are:
(1) the highly responsible, conscientious, and empathic types
(2) Enneagram Type Ones, Twos, Fours, or Nines
(3) Highly Sensitive Persons (HSPs)
The most common words spoken by those who’ve sat with Joanne:
“I thought it was just me. I’m NOT crazy!”
“I can finally figure out what to do with all these feelings!”
I was a panelist at the EnneaSummit 2024 for the Enneagram Practitioner Panel.
In this panel, we share our experiences and observations about what different Enneagram types think they need in therapy, what they actually need, and some important growth steps so they can grow beyond their type.